arc> (ob (v name "John Doe") (v age 23) (v id 73881))
  (ob (v age 23) (v id 73881) (v name "John Doe"))

  (##ob (v name "John Doe") (v age 23) (v id 73881))

(The v here is for "value." An alternate syntax, (kv ...), could be used for entries where the key isn't quoted.)

(Note that (##ob ...) here is a reader macro call. I'm using a design for reader macros that puts the macro name on the inside of a parenthesis, rather than the approach taken by things like Racket's #hash(...). That way, reader macro names can be descriptive without pushing the indentation far to the right.)

This approach generalizes to just about any other data structure we want, such as graphs, queues, sorted sets, etc. We don't have to pick out new parentheses for each one, and we don't have to specify idiosyncratic indentation rules either, so pretty printing at the REPL can be very nice automatically:

  (ob
    (v name "John Doe")
    (v age 23)
    (v id 73881))
  
  (ob
    (v name
      "John Doe")
    (v age
      23)
    (v id
      73881))

  (ob
   (v name "John Doe")
   (v age 23)
   (v id 73881))
  
  (ob
   (v
    name
    "John Doe")
   (v
    age
    23)
   (v
    id
    73881))

- We may have to represent Arc tables as their own data structure, rather than directly as Racket hashes, so that they print nicely even when they're nested inside other Racket data structures like lists and vectors. This is one distinct place where, for the best possible Racket interop, we may need to avoid representing Arc values the same way as Racket ones. Then again, I think `port-print-handler` might provide the ability to print parts of Racket values using the Arc style, so it could be possible to get very nice interop here.

- In order to get (##foo to be processed as a call to an Arc reader macro called "foo", we would need to replace the Racket ( readtable entry with an entry that behaved the same as it does in non-## cases. Racket's ( syntax isn't as simple as it might seem, as I found out when I wrote a custom open parenthesis for Parendown, and I would be glad to copy out some of my Parendown code to make this work.

- Of course, it would take some design work to decide on Arc-side interfaces for defining things like reader macros, custom write behaviors, and maybe even custom REPL pretty print behaviors and custom quasiquotation behaviors (to determine where unquotes can go). In Racket, customization of the `write` or `print` behavior is usually done in a per-value-type way using `gen:custom-write`, but I think it would be better to associate them with the "current writer" or "current printer" somehow, just as the reader and macroexpander use the "current readtable" and the "current namespace." That would allow us to swap out the writer at the same time as we swap out the reader, rather than letting the `read` and `write` behavior get out of sync. Essentially, I would store all these things in the Arc namespace.

---

Would it be much trouble if I started working toward some of these things for Anarki or Amacx? If I do work on this, which things would need my help the most or would make the best milestones? Honestly, my top priorities right now are Punctaffy and Cene, so even though I can express opinions about Arc, I might not allocate the time to follow through on them myself. (My desire not to burden people with something that I think of as being in only in a half-finished state has always been one of the reasons I commit so rarely to Anarki.)

I know the reader syntax for tables bears very little resemblance to the curly brackets people have been talking about here, and I don't want to trample on that. Maybe tables can `write` with curly brackets while other things tend to use this more general-purpose style.

My aspiration for Amacx is that it becomes a framework that allows you to create the language you want to create. By analogy, similar to how if you're writing a compiler, and you'd find LLVM useful, you can use LLVM as part of your toolchain to write your compiler.

Thus, if you (or someone) wanted to create a particular reader and printer syntax for tables (whether ##ob and v or something else), then you certainly should be able to do that.

I have both an Arc reader and printer written in Arc, but not yet included in Amacx because currently it's too slow. Working on the reader and printer makes the most sense, I think, after finishing my current work on source location tracking (assuming that works out), both because with a profiler it will be easier to see how to speed up the implementation, and because the reader will need to support source location tracking itself.

  current-arc> (obj name "John Doe" age 23 id 73881)

  your-arc> (ob (v name "John Doe") (v age 23) (v id 73881))

  alt-arc> (ob name "John Doe" age 23 id 73881)

  (ob (v name "John Doe") (v age 23) (v id 73881))

Code could still use `obj`, even in the reader. These two things could be parsed as the same value:

  (##obj name "John Doe" age 23 id 73881)
  (##object (v name "John Doe") (v age 23) (v id 73881))

Here's an example of how a nested table prints in the latest Anarki:

  arc> coerce*
  '#hash((bytes . #hash((string . #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1128:21>)))
         (char
          .
          #hash((int . #<procedure:integer->char>)
                (num . #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1133:21>)))
         (cons
          .
          #hash((queue . #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)
                (string . #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1127:21>)
                (sym . #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)
                (table . #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)))
         (fn
  ...

  arc> coerce*
  '(##obj
     
     bytes (##obj string #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1128:21>)
     
     char
     (##obj
       int #<procedure:integer->char>
       num #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1133:21>)
     
     cons
     (##obj
       queue #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>
       string #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1127:21>
       sym #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>
       table #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)
     
     fn
  ...

Oh, and I'm not indenting things by the length of the "##obj" operation itself, just by two spaces in every case, but that's a more general rule I go by.

As far as Lisp code in general is concerned, those seem like personal preferences. I don't expect anyone to indent this quite the same way. Maybe people could take a shot at it and see if a consensus emerges here. :)

Now suppose I could only use `##object`:

  arc> coerce*
  '(##object
     (v bytes (##object (v string #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1128:21>)))
     (v char
       (##object
         (v int #<procedure:integer->char>)
         (v num #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1133:21>)))
     (v cons
       (##object
         (v queue #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)
         (v string #<procedure:...ne/anarki/ac.rkt:1127:21>)
         (v sym #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)
         (v table #<procedure:...t/private/kw.rkt:592:14>)))
     (v fn
  ...

---

"Assuming you're attempting to have ordered tables"

[foo bar] is now read as (%brackets foo bar) and {a 1 b 2} is read as (%braces a 1 b 2)

The default implementation of %braces is the obj macro, so your example works exactly as written above.

  {todo:({id 1 name "get eggs" done nil} {id 8 name "fix computer" done t})} 

Let me know if that seems sufficient for now.

You're right that Arc still can't read tables written via `write`. That is definitely worth supporting. Here is an example of how it could work: https://github.com/sctb/lumen/blob/55b14ca8aafeaf6b0ca1b636d...

Eh? You definitely can, in Racket. :) The only problem I know of is that when you write a mutable table, you read back an immutable one.

---

"You're right that Arc still can't read tables written via `write`."

Arc's supported this for as long as I can remember. The only problem is that they come back immutable.

Here's Arc 3.2 on Racket 7.0:

  arc> (= foo (fromstring (tostring:write:obj a 1 b 2) (read)))
  #hash((a . 1) (b . 2))
  arc> (= foo!a 3)
  Error: "hash-set!: contract violation\n  expected: (and/c hash? (not/c immutable?))\n  given: '#hash((a . 1) (b . 2))\n  argument position: 1st\n  other arguments...:\n   'a\n   3"

  arc> (= foo (fromstring (tostring:write:obj a 1 b 2) (read)))
  '#hash((a . 1) (b . 2))
  
  arc> (= foo!a 3)
  3
  
  arc> foo
  '#hash((a . 3) (b . 2))

  {'id 3 
   'c {
      'name "james c clarke" 
      'age 23 
      'addr "1724 Cox Ave. NY, NY 90210"
     }
  }

[1] http://arclanguage.org/item?id=20803

  (= tpipe {todo 
              '({id 1 cont "get eggs" done '(nil)}
                {id 23 cont "fix toilet" done '(nil)})
            week '(nil)
            today '({id 83 cont "Build something that works in arc" done '(nil)})

  arc> tpipe!todo.1!id

    (= npipe {todo 
                (list {id 1 cont "get eggs" done '(nil)}
                      {id 23 cont "fix toilet" done '(nil)})
              week '(nil)
              today (list {id 83 cont "Build something that works in arc" done '(nil)})
              done (list {id 44 cont "Research Ordered Associative Arrays" done '(2019 1 21)})})

    (= unqpipe {todo 
                `(,{id 1 cont "get eggs" done '(nil)}
                  ,{id 23 cont "fix toilet" done '(nil)})
                week '(nil)
                today `(,{id 83 cont "Build something that works in arc" done '(nil)})
                done `(,{id 44 cont "Research Ordered Associative Arrays" done '(2019 1 21)})})

    '(foo bar)

    (foo bar)

So in a similar way

    {foo "bar"}

I don't agree. quoting a list is a way to protect the expression from evaluation, in this case because round brackets normally indicate an expression that needs to be called. A table literal {...} doesn't need protection from evaluation as a callable expression as it's just data and like any other data it should evaluate to itself. And, frankly, it would really suck having to protect that data everywhere in my code because someone wants a really nuanced use case to work.

I've been trying to get the tables generated by the personal data link in news to export as JSON for a while now[0]. Part of the problem seems to be related to this - Racket doesn't seem to know what to do with #tagged tem or #hash (much less nils.)

  arc> (= user '{name "John Doe" age 23 id 73881})
  {(age . 23) (id . 73881) (name . "John Doe")}

  arc> (= user '#{name "John Doe" age 23 id 73881})
  #{(age . 23) (id . 73881) (name . "John Doe")}

  arc> #{foo "bar"}